Articulo control de peso en 22 horas de McElroy

[JOSE LUIS ROMERO]

Compañeros cetreros todos:
me dirijo a la comunidad para exponer la siguiente pregunta quien tendra en su poder el articulo de Harry McELroy titulado control de peso en 22 horas, me interesa tenerlo

[jangi_la]

pues si seria lo suyo tener documentos como este por lo menos para leerlo y aprender cosas nuevas

[JOSE LUIS ROMERO]

compañero jangila no entiendo tu comentario

[António Calado]

Hola

Mira el articulo, no se donde los poderas conseguir, pero en el libro de Mcdermott " el accipiter imprinted " , tienes los gráficos de perdidas de peso. Tu mismo poderas hacer uno. Yo en mi opinion es lo más importante aparte el manejo para accipiters imprintados. Trabajar bien con la bascula es fundamental en accipiters, en particular los troquelados. Yo estoy volando una prima alemana troquelada y me da muy buenos resultados. Creo que sin duda es de lo más importante para los accipiters.
Haces uno grafico de perdida de peso por hora, pesas el ave cuando no tiega comida en el buche( por la mañana, si la vas a volar por la mañana, pesas igual la cantidad de comida -siempre de la misma calidad ( yo le siempre codornices ) y despues controlas hora a hora el peso - para una hembra si esta perdiendo todavia 5 grs/hora está alta de peso). En normal empiezan a perder peso la 2ª hora , e en la 7, 8, 9 hora es cuando pierden mas peso, despues volven a bajar , pero todavia continuan a perder más de 5 grs. hora, cuando quasi mantiene el peso abajo de los 5 grs y quasi si para la perdida , estan buenas de peso. Nota que tienes que tener una ideia general de cual es su peso de vuelo. para entonces encontares el peso de caza verdadero. Una de las peores cosas que si puede hacer es cazar con una ave en peso de vuelo e no en su verdadero peso de caza( ZONA PROBLEMÀTICA ).Todos los malos comportamientos si pueden hacer en estos pesos, igual que en los pesos bajos( ZONA CALIENTE ), hay incluso muchos que si encuentran en las dos situaciones y son iguales en ambos los casos. Procura el equilibrio.( ZONA NORMAL Y ACONSEJADA ). si queda entre ambas las zonas.

Un Saludo

Un

[JOSE LUIS ROMERO]

Antonio:
compañero gracias por la información, soy fanático de los cola roja, pero por cosas del destino llego a mis manos un cernícalo y próximamente me traerán un pollo de cooper macho de este año para su rehabilitacion, como lo podrán apreciar el manejo de la bascula tiene que ser preciso y exacto pues estamos ablando de decimas de gramo, en este momento tengo listo las instalaciones perchas y una nueva bascula expresamente para estos casos, por lo que es necesario establecer una metodología y sobre todo la interpretación de los datos en su verdadera dimension y que se pueda eliminar al máximo el margen de error.
En este momento tengo como referencia el libro de Moullimes american kestrel el de Mcdermont que vale hacer el comentario es un muy buen libro que es aplicable no solo a loa accipiters ademas de a cualquier ave de presa pues mejora el autoconosimiento de tus capacidades como cetrero ademas de brindarte mas armas para elevar tu eficiencia

[ACP Gdl]

Un yankee:

Sera un buen maestro en lo que apeso se refiere hechale ganas yo comence con cernicalos y luego le brinque al cola roja, son los mejores para mi, sin entrar en polemicas.

Los cernicalos bien hechos son un animalito hermosisimo, puedes cazar practicamente donde sea y hacer que salga desde la ventanilla de tu coche, una pasada estos yankees....

Luego no sucentas como te fue......

Saludos..............

[JOSE LUIS ROMERO]

AMIGO ACP:
TENGO YA ALGÚN TIEMPO TRABAJANDO CON LOS COLA ROJA ANTES ERA HARRISERO PERO LLEGO A MIS MANOS UN POLLO DE COLA ROJA Y ME FASCINO SU CARÁCTER, SU FUERZA, SU TEMERIDAD TODA SU PERSONALIDAD ADEMAS DE QUE EN LUGAR DE CORAZÓN TIENEN UN UN NÚCLEO DE FUSIÓN NUCLEAR.
ACTUALMENTE Y LEYENDO VARIOS LIBROS ME DI CUENTA QUE EN EL CASO DEL MCDERMONTT EN EL DE MOWLLIMEX JUNTO CON EL ARTICULO DE HARRY MCELRROY CONTROL DE PESO EN 22 HORAS TENEMOS LA LLAVE PARA MANEJAR CUALQUIER AVE DE CETRERÍA CON EL 100% DE SEGURIDAD ADEMAS DE MEJORAR Y PULIR NUESTRAS DOTES DE CETREROS ESTO ES APLICABLE A TODOS LOS NIVELES.
HOY EN DÍA TRABAJO CON LA SEMARNAT EN UN PROYECTO DE REHABILITACIÓN DE AVES DE PRESA Y TENGO A MI CARGO TRES COLA ROJA DOS FASE OSCURA CON UN PESO DE 1.150 Y LA OTRA DE 1050 GRS PESO DE VUELO LA OTRA QUE ES UNA GUERITA ESTA EN UN PESO DE 1050 GRS AQUÍ EL PROBLEMA ES QUE DE LAS TRES SOLO HAY UNA EN POSIBILIDADES DE LIBERACIÓN LAS OTRAS SON MATERIA PARA LA FASE DE REPRODUCCIÓN EN CAUTIVERIO Y NO LO DIGO COMO PROYECTO SIN COMO ALGO SOLIDO Y QUE ESTA YA FUNCIONANDO EL GRUPO DE TRABAJO CON EL QUE ESTOY LO CONFORMAN 5 PERSONAS Y SEMARNAT NOS CONFIÓ 10 AVES YA LES PLATICARE COMO AVANZAMOS.

[carlos.oliveros]

Que tal Jose Luis jeje gusto saludarlo por aca tambien, cambiando un poco el tema del articulo que esta buscando le cuento que el año pasado rescate una hembra de colaroja bajada de un escopetazo, afortunadamente no sufrio heridas de consideracion, esta a punto de terminar de mudar ya que no tenia ni un solo timon ya que estaba en una jaula para conejo, (imaginaras el estado del ave) tengo toda la intencion de liberarla, seria bueno ponernos de acuerdo para que me diera su punto de vista acerca de las condiciones y tecnicas para poder realizar la liberacion, le comento esto por que el año pasado tambien nos fueron proporcionados unos cuantos harris con la misma idea de liberarse por parte de la semarnat, pero aun no concluye el proyecto, pero lo mas interesante de todo es que si estas en cuestiones de reproduccion de cola roja y si le puede servir un macho de 5 mudas el cual ya presento todas las ganas de hacer nido y toda la cosa.....pues es cuestion de ver que se puede hacer, con gusto lo proporciono, esta ave me la obsequiaron unos cetreros de morelos los cuales no pudieron manejarlo, asi que quedo a sus ordenes...saludos

[virdz]

Harry McElroy, el verdadero predecesor de la "receta" y pionero de la "psicología rapaz", objeto de burlas y desdén por parte de la "nueva generación" y autor de 3 libros que apenas se están "redescubriendo".
Aquí te pongo lo que buscas:
22 Hour Weight Control by: Wes Collins
(credited to Harry McElroy)


This subject gets tossed around a lot here in Cyber Space, and I am often asked to explain it. The most simple and general explaination of 22hr weight control is this. You feed the bird enough food so that it is at weight 22 hours later. Now, that being said, I will explain how and why I utilize this system.

The reasons I use it are pretty basic. First, I don't like to bounce a bird's weight around unless I am "intending" to change their hunting weight. The second reason is because it is such a stable system and so accurate. Weight doesn't need to be a variable in training. It needs to be a purposeful change. The third reason is because I fly large and small birds and although both benefit from keen weight control, small birds will die from yo-yo weight control. The fourth reason is because 22hr weight control reduces the issue "hunger" too, since it has always been 22hours since its last food intake. If you feed a bird 12 hours before hunting, they may respond with less zeal even though they are at a nice hunting weight. Another reason is because it makes it simple to adjust the weight for a delay or early start at hunting or to hunt at night. The last reason is because that is what my sponsor taught me to do.

Ok, here goes my pitiful attempt to explain how I do 22hr weight control. I have the bird at hunting weight. I will use 1000g = hunting weight. I hunt him at 1000g@4pm. I finish hunting and feed him up to 1100g@6pm. 22hrs later the bird is at 1000g@4pm. Now I know 3 things. First is this. If I put the bird at 1100g@6pm, I can expect the bird to be at weight when "I" get ready to hunt the next day at 4pm. Secondly, I know it takes 100g of food/22hours to keep my bird at weigh. The third thing is this. My bird is metabolizing food at a rate of 100g/22hrs which equals 4.5g/hr. Here is a typical log book entry for a few days.

11/24 4pm 1000g
11/24 6pm 1100g

11/25 4pm 1000g (I have to adjust to hunt tomorrow at 5pm)
11/25 6pm 1104.5g(this will give me another hour at a rate of 4.5g/hr)

11/26 5pm 1000g
11/27 6pm 1100g

I hope this explaination helps. You will and can have slight changes in the metabolic rate of your bird depending on exercise, temp, and being kept in or out of a box.

Wes,
Thanks for your explaination... a couple of things to remember is that a hawk does NOT metabalize at a constant rate. It starts slow then burns food at a fairly fast speed then as it digests more food it will actually slow down in the metabalisim rate, grams per hour

Try this.. it will help explain the 22 hr idea and actually make it much clearer as you put it into practice...

Weigh your hawk after it eats then as best as you can take it's weight ever hour and record the rate at which it is digesting food...
If the temps are constant and the food amount quality is the same nutritional value, you can plot this over a number of days ( so you don't have to stay up 22 hours<G>)--- key here is food quality. Many falconers don't figure this into the equation and 22 hours later they can't/don't /won't understand why their hawk is to high/to low.

Once you have seen the bell curve that is consumption rate you will see where it is better to feed to a flying weight than to feed to fly 22 hours later. Nothing wrong with the 22 hour idea it's just that if you are an hour late or a couple hours late then you will be actually flying your bird somewhat light to very light. On big hawks it doesn't make a lot of difference but once you get into micro-hawking it can have a huge impact on flight/ atittude/success. In fact I've flown many sharpies now all day long by continuously fueling the furnace throughout the day with small tidbits and rewards on kills.
JMO,
Barry

Hey Barry,
I agree about food quality too. On a big bird it is pretty negligible, however on a small bird it can mean the difference in a kestrel that comes back in the window or you having to walk after it. Or the difference in a kestrel killing starlings and one refusing them. I have flown a few kestrels myself. One male was around 80g flight weight. I used to maintain him on a 22 hour system too. Actually small birds are what made me really get serious about it. I ALWAYS weigh after feeding up. That is crucial as tidbits dehydrate or get lost or whatever. Weighing food and doing math is a bad idea, especially with small birds. If I was going to hunt 2 hours early, I found that adjusting it by the metabolic rate made it just right. Same with swapping from morning to afternoon hunting. Although a bird will certainly burn at a different rate, I too found that it is a curve. However, I think the curve adjusts itself for the ration. If he averaged .8g/hr and I had to fly him 4 hours later than normal or in 26 hours, then I simply added 3.2 g to his fed weight and he was always at weight. It seems he went through burning his normal speed and then slowed down at empty(the curve you mention) 2 hours later. Make sense? Most of the time, I was accurate to the 1/10 of grams over 22hours. I kept him in the house though and put him in his box everynight at the same time since he burned more out on the perch at night than in a box. It is just like when you crop a bird up for example with large hawks. Their metabolic weight will not be the same because it is just too much and they smoke through it. However if you are adjusting for a daily fluctuation, I found it worked readily.

Also, you talked about being an hour late or early. I have a pretty solid schedule, and if I needed to move it an hour, I just made the adjustment and had no problem.


Explain what you mean by feeding to flying weight vs feeding to a weight for 22 hours later when you are going to hunt? I didn't quite understand that part.

This is a great thread, because I would say from group hunting that more people struggle with having a bird at weight "on time" than with most other aspects. Once you find hunting weight, it is pretty easy IMHO to maintain it, IF you have a plan. Many apprentices and even long time falconers are very up and down with weight and I think weight is the last unintentional variable a person needs in their falconry.

Thanks so much for the post!!!!!
Wes

_________________
God Bless,
Wes

I think you and I are the same page here.... As far as 'feed to weight' is concerned it's something most of us do... it's not so much a 22 hour plan but merely flying your hawk when it is the weight that it flys best at.

Simply put ... at 22 hours your hawk should weigh, let's say for simplicity, 1300 grams at say 4 pm, but some time around noon you weigh her and she is already 1300 grams, ( need to find out why she was so low but there is definately a reason.) What do you do? If it were me I go flying or I feed here something to hope she is back at 1300 at 4 pm if that's when I want to fly. In other words you fly to or maybe better said you fly at the weight you want.

I've seen to many, been with too many, and personally done to many times myself, flown hawks that were either to high for the time they are flown or worse to low for the time they were flown.

It's up to the falconer to determine when they want to fly and I think it's better to base it on weight then to base it on when I am ready or a clock. Please read , this is to say we all need to be more careful about our hawks condidtion.
How many times do you hear or read that.... my hawk was to high ( then don't fly -do exercises or feed less or wait and fly when the hawk is ready) but the falconer still flies his hawk then something from poor fist/lure calldown response to losing it happens.

I guess I'm laboring the point but I don't fly the 22 hour route , though if done right and understood, the principles are true... but it still comes down to flying when the hawk is at the weight it will perform best at..
How that makes it clearer
Barry

Ah, then yes we are on exactly the same page. If I am on vacation, like for the next two weeks, then I do exactly that and honestly am a little less anal about the weight control since I can just adjust "my time" to the hawks weight. However since I am a pastor and work in the school system, it pays for me to be ready to fly right on time since it is often scarce.

When I used to fly kestrels if I came home and he was a little behind on the burn schedule. I use to do fist drops with him for a few minutes and he would zip through that last little bit. Their metabolism seemed so easy to influence compared to a large hawk, but if I checked % or ratios, maybe it isn't.

If I come home early, and my bird is at weight, I too usually just decided God is smiling on me and I get to hunt more that day, but the days that I come earlier than flight time are only weekends during most of the season. I usually come home by around 3:30 and hit the truck loaded up by 4pm(sheduled flight time).

Murray told me a long time ago if I came home to find a bird too tight, always feed 10-15g of something rich and it will fuel him for the hunt. I never forgot that "tidbit"of advice.

Glad to see you and I are on the same page. Makes me feel better when veterans like yourself do things the same way. Time proves/disproves many things doesn't it!

Have a great day Barry!
Wes

_________________
God Bless,
Wes

This is a great thread. I've always described falconry as the art of weight management. I was one of those that couldn't figure it out. Then one season, I started writing down everything I fed my bird and kept a list of what I fed her and what was her weight the next morning. I now have an extensive list of food and food combinations. I know for example that feeding my bird 1oz of rabbit will make her loose 1/2 ounce if the weather is in the 40's to 50's degree F. I have it down to what does one DOC and a mouse do. What does 1 oz of rabbit and a DOC do, etc. What can I feed her to maintain her weight. I hunt her on Saturday and if we catch something, I let her break in, have a little and take her up with some tidbits. The next day, if she catches something, I let her crop up. So Monday, because she has had a big feed on Sunday, I let her fast. Then we start the weekly regime of how much does she need to loose before Saturday and what can I give her each day (for variety) so she looses no more than 1/2 oz per day. I also factor in that I do jump-ups everyday with her for this amount of food. I know some people fast their birds 1 to 2 days before the hunt. I don't like doing this. With my method she gets fed everyday, except Monday (and that's not always the case. it depends on what she weights on Monday). It has made the task of weight management , for me at least, a lot easier and I know exactly what to feed her from day to day.

Nice account who ever you are. The next big challeneg and the one most never get to is increasing her intake yet still maintain her weight. Well actually to do it right you increase her intake in direct proportion to the amount of exercise it takes to burn it off. sounds easy - eh!!

If 50 jump ups = 1/2 oz intake
who many jumps would you do in ordrer to feed 2 ozs.?

Here in is where the multitudes lose it. As she does more exercises she is building muscle , getting stronger and her weight must go up.
How about say 200 jump ups, oh maybe 100 restraints and toss in a couple hundred fist drops. What would her intake be? woulsd she be in better shape?

Would you be surprised if I told you I increased my goshawks weight by a full 140 grams, by doing this and she is consuming 125-150 grams of quail an still making weight the next day.

There is a lot more to figure than just basic weight management-things like attitude, desire, endurance, health.
Barry


I believe too that sometimes there is no explaination for the difference in a burn sometimes. I always called it a hiccup. I have had a tethered RT eating the same amount of squirrel, with the same routine and the same weather gin along for weeks and then one day there is a 10g change. Rarely down in weight though.

Barry,
I think McDermott wrote an interesting thing about what you described with increasing muscle mass. I was absolutley dumbfounded when I read it. He stated that he rounded the breast out very well on a coop that was already killing well, but kind of thin. He said the amount burned increased which helps with multiple trade offs and making weight the next day, however, if memory serves me correctly he noticed no marked increase in success. Do you believe you can see an increase in success?

I have started jump ups with my falcon and you literally can see the difference in his ability in just two days. I am off for a meet and won't be back home for a few days, but I hope the change helps in the field. My sit is different than Mike's in that my bird isn't in good shape and thin. He is just thin at this point. So,...........I hope to see a change.

_________________
God Bless,
Wes


Yes and here is why:( a little muscle physiology lesson for everyone)

The most abundant energy source available to the muscle fiber is fat. The breakdown of fat to yield ATP is referred to as lipolysis.(ATP is needed for muscle contraction..with out it you get rigor mortise..that is why you get stiff, no more ATP to re cock the muscle fibers)..
The rate at which lipolysis occurs is the limiting factor in obtaining ATP. Lipolysis is responsible for resting muscle activity, but its contribution to the overall muscle energy supply will decrease as contraction intensity increases...so the ATP has to come from some where... that being the quail..

recap: More exercise = more muscle mass = more ATP need= decrease in lipolisis= need more sources for ATP= more quail....

_________________
~Chris L.

Alright guys let's see if we can move this forward a little bit. So- we're looking to make more muscle for better preformance... Now let's consider what kind of muscle you need----

Are we trying to just bulk up and be like a prize fighter...
or-be lean like a sprinter?

Depending on the types of exercises we do it's one way or the other. That in a nut shell is why I limit my JU rountine... think about it if you are trying to increase muscle strength it won't happen without major ( can you say hundreds) ju. My gos and I'm sure RTs Harry's hawks and a few others can jump at least half way to an arm high fist. Great if you need leg strength, maybe for crushing rabbits or squrrels but does little for wing shaping.

What does it take for a RT to spirol UPWARD round and round a tree as a squirrel goes vertical UP, and do it until it either catchs or causes the squirrel to bail? Evr have you hawk do that? Continually for several minutes?

Wing muscle has to come from restaints and even better from fist drops...
also , quickness and most imprortant is stamina. Very few are the hawks that can routinely catch a bunch of ducks and pheasant off the fist....
Some hawks may catch a few in quirk set ups or lucky slips but I can tell you most assuredly they won't rountinely do it. Now I've heard tales of HH's doing it, but seeing is believing and I've yet to myself see it ... they just aren't built to do it ,... not like an accip can. Oh I know some one here will tell me they can rountinely do it with a HH, but at this point I just don't.

Mass exercising can do lots for the musculature of a hawk, along with mentally conditioning them to be productive. But in the end it will be , at least for accips, success that breeds confidence which allows them to continue to be successful and try harder and tougher flights. This will not ever happen to the extent that it can if we don't take excercising seriously

As far as Mike's barrel chested sharpie, I don't know .... I have never got a sharpie that fit so I can't say what was going on. Same for my goshawks... If you felt the breast muscle at the keel,it wasn't this big bulging" Mr. Atlas" chested bird , but if you felt up under it's wings where the pecs connect it would freak you out!!
Some day, I'll post a conversation I had with one of the premier goshawkers and his take on this, if we continue this thread and it warrants it.

Thought I'ld add my 2 cents. I fly sharpies and merlins, twice a day when I get the chance. I like to feed my birds up to a weight before I go to bed say 10:00 pm. Then they are ready by 7:00 am. I call it "fed weight". I have noticed over the years that they fly better as their weight goes up. Then we hit a ceiling and after a few days things start to fall apart. Then I reduce weight and start the slow climb back up.

Also regarding fitness and food consumption. In my experience accipiters don't get enough exercise during hunting to improve their physical fitness and therefore bennifit greatly from jump ups or restrained pursuits or what ever you can come up with. I have seen the slow degradation in condition that occurs that Barry alluded to .Usually by mid november I'm thinking is this all there is ? I'm bored. So we start with what I call compound verticles. These are like a jump up but I rotate my fist in a circle and make my sharpie do barrel rolls. It tears em down fast! Usually 4-6 rolls per jump. Maybe 10 -20 jumps. A week or two of these after each hunt and my sharpies are heavier and going through way more food. Their motor is bigger and thier tank is full and watch out! That's when they start catching snipe and other fast birds in long 200+ yard flights. My old sharpie Pandora took 3 snipe in one hunt. They can do it.

With the merlins because I fly them waiting on they get a lot of exercise. It is not unusual to have one on the wing for 40+ min. at a stretch stooping and chasing and remounting the entire time. They go through a lot of food and hunt more for fun then to eat. Why else would they cache most of their kills like they do.

Anyways I see that I've strayed a bit ,so there.

My best to you.
Keith

Hey Keith,

Nice simple explanation. I have a similar structure for hawking my birds. As you mention, there is a ceiling that once reached, precludes performance. Though I work in reverse, I have the same general results.

I tend to fly a number of days in a row, starting off the first day at a top end flight weight, and over the course of 3 or 4 days slowly dial the weight back down to achieve top performance. After a number of days of hawking, I imurse the bird in an excersize regime for a couple days while stuffing them as full as they will allow, ultimately bring their weight back above their top flight weight. With a day of fasting, rangle and or washed meat, I bring the weight back down and start the whole process over again. I try most nights to excersize in the garage after hawking, but don't always get it done. I have found though, when I do make the time to do this, the bird performs much, much better.

I try to set this schedule around the weather forcasts to take advantage of the best days for hawking, but often find myself hawking in a snowstorm or other less than ideal condition! Such is life in the upper Midwest.

_________________
Kory Koch

Chris,

I personally have found that with second year imprints, tidbitting on the glove has been a non issue, that is with jump-ups. I do not tidbit on the glove the first year as I am not smart enough to know how to do this and avoid some bad habits. That being said, some people do feed off the glove the first year.

The first year, if I do any jumping excersizes, they are actually jump-downs, tossing a tidbit on the floor. Through repetition, your bird will start to jump back to the glove to get to jump back to the tidbit on the floor. I have found that I have to spent the better part of a week to get this routine polished.

I give a que to jump back to the glove, bending down and coaxing the bird up to the glove at the same time. Soon, the bird is jumping up a few inches to the glove, then, of course, to the glove over the top of my head.

My perfered first year excersizes are jump-downs, mixed with restrained persuits to the lure, about 5 or 6 of these stretched out from 5 to 10 seconds each, then one to a frozen game animal (usually a pheasant or duck) then trading off to the lure for the balance of the meal. This reinforcment of a prey search image is quite bennificial to a first year bird.

For top cardio, I personally feel that yo-yos are the best for getting those long, stong flights on pheasants. Barry uses a mix as well, but perhaps he can comment on what he thinks is the best bang for the buck.

_________________
Kory Koch

Hmmm... best bang for the buck! While I don't feed to the fist in the field , while doing intense exercising at home I will feed small tidbits -- it keeps the gos interested in coming to the fist and have never seen ANY type of aggression resulting from it. Now then this is done well after the hawk is entered knows the hunting regime and has a hunter mentality not an eyas wanting to be fed mentality... does that make sense?

"Jump downs" are just the first step it doing restraint persuits and it can shape the hawk when she is slowing down with a partial crop and seems to be losing her interest...a 'free' dive for the food a few times will make her work harder for the next tidbit when you do a restraint.

Best bang for the buck .... hmmm...if wing beats or working on the cardio is you goal...try this.... Make a barrel perch with a platform about one inch down inside of it... set it about 25 foot away. Leave a tidbit on the edge of the perch to start with. Attach a 30 foot piece of 3/8" climbing rope ( static weight) to both anklets. Starting at 10 foot - let the hawk see the TB she will fly to it... after she eats it call back to the fist for TB. she is dragging the rope both ways.... now reload the barrel.

Remember this is going to ultimately result in several things happening and I can't verbatim write out the whole system but keep in mind there is no right way to do this and repetitions and changing it randomly will result in this becoming a game and a challenge for both of you.

Ok here some suggestions that will increase the work out. Once she knows the gig ...

Start to set the food down inside on the platform so she can't see it, this will teach her to go see if a reward is available... eventually she will fly there expecting it and at that point you start to randomly NOT put it there...

At the same time once she is there and she expects you to have a TB in your hand when she comes back... randomly don't. Now she is flying on spectulation... see ... more bang for the buck... it gets better !

Once she has that game down .. remember she is dragging the lead back and forth... extend your way out to the full 25 foot... what's next??

Now you can gently start applying pressure to the lead as she flys to the perch kind of like you do a kite when putting it up or in Kory's case when playing a fish<G>

Other "rules and suggestions"--- don't let her see you put TB in bucket..., as with all exercising mix it up -- this is very tiring for the hawk give breaks sometimes when they are really sucking air... maybe throw in a couple of jumps..etc. to keep their mind occupied and alert. Easy of the resistance of the rope, at least to start with.

You may get to the point that the hawk will get lazy, when that happens choke her down so she fails to make the barrel, kind of a poor effort will not be rewarded thing. You will obviously have to be able to put food on the platform with out the hawk seeing it , so with the hawk on the fist walk past the barrel and put a piece in while she is not looking. There will come a time when the hawk will be so keen on this that she will fly over to the barrel with much resistance and still come back to the fist turn around and do it again and again.I have had hawks do 50-60 flights in fifteen minutes and the wing beats accumulated per flight is equivalent to a 20 yard flight ( at least in time in the air not to mention the drag which is like flying into a head wind of different mphs according to the drag amount used) each time.

This whole exercise routine is for increasing wing strength and stamina , it is also my favorite way of exercising a hawk ... it's not boring, it allows for some creative experimenting and you will in fact IMO get the most bank for the buck.
Barry


I dont know how much I can add following Barry's post.

I thought I'd try and share some of the things I'm doing with my imprint ferrug this year.
I'm using a heavy (something like 250kg breaking strain) cotton lead that's about 30 meters long and then do long recalls to the fist, with as much calling the bird downwind as I can. Upwind recalls I do more to help him get his breath back without panting on the fist.
He really doesnt seem to need to work hard at all to fly upwind.

As his fitness increases, or depending on weather I either wet the lead with water or just let it soak up dew as he drags it over the grass.
The amount of resistance he has to drag is increadible and early on he could only manage a single flight before he's panting.

Jump ups are the easiest thing in the world for him. He can jump from the ground to waist height (although he would end up upside down) using just his legs without using his wings for lift. Basically he can do high jumps one after another when he's fat (benefit of a conditioned imprint) in moult.
I thought of trying to make a shorter heavy lead for jumpups but didnt fancy putting strain on his legs just as he takes off.
Instead I noticed he battles to do them if he's been dragging his primaries on wet grass so I started spraying his primaries and then calling him to the fist as high as I can reach. It does make it harder for him, but to really push him I leave his tail guard fitted or put an elastic band around the middle of his tail and then call him to a fist held high.

I cant say just yet if it will make any difference to his hunting, but he has builtup muscle on his pectorals that he certainly didnt have last year.

One thing to mention, I use a big open field with a long gradual slope and not a tree or hedge in sight for the creance training. The only possible tangle/snag problem is a small dry stone wall to one side of the field. I wouldnt suggest using a heavy creance where there's a chance the bird can land in a tree.

_________________
~Evan

Exactally Jeff!

What I so enjoy about these excersize "games" is the connection that is made. I generally fly between 3 and 6 days a week and try to always find time to do these games in the evenings, even after hawking.

I will be the first to admit that there are days where we run out of daylight or everything goes "right" and we are done hawking early. Either way, it is head home, then find 45 minutes before bed to play excersize games in the garage. I have gone as far as doing them at 3:00 am before work as well. This goes back to the original thread topic of 22 hour weight control. Just base the length of the games on the ammount of food the bird will need to be at hunting weight the next day. Of course as Barry mentioned, birds do tend to burn through food at a changing rate as their weight decends, but this is all chartable using this system.

When in a regular routine with these games, on the days that I don't hunt, a session may stretch on for a couple hours, interspersed with breaks here and there.

And, when this routine is well developed, even what I would call a "fat", well above flying weight bird will play these games with vigor. That is where the real muscle it made.

Pretty neat stuff. Now I feel like I am preaching to the choir.


Yes there is a decernable rate @ which they will lose weight as they burn off food, but what is really of more importance, at least to me, is the amount they consume to keep @ a said weight. I'm all for maximum amount of intake to achieve max conditioning and added muscle.
There's a difference, and I strive for the upper limit for max output in the field.
Barry

Well actually Jeff.. The big female Peales I flew for a season did them in my garage just fine! She had been in a breeding project for 4 years and had not flown or handled much. I started flying her in the garage, doing Jump ups, RP's at ducks, along with kiting daily. I had learned how nice your relationship can become with hawks doing these games, but she never seemed to like them, or me for that matter.

Her first free flight she knocked my upside the head, knocking my glasses off in a knee deep hay field and quite litterally, knocking me out.

She went on to fly very strong and do quite well for a longwing in Michigan.

She killed this one after missing on three attempted stoops at three of my best long distance homers..

Andrea:
I keep a record of the birds wt loss from the last feed and divide that by the number of hours have passed since the last feed. That will give me
the wt. loss per hour. If I am going to hunt in 18 hours I just X the hourly loss rate by 18 hours and that what I feed the bird for the next days hunt. There are other factor in this like weather, type of food etc. But I get it real close and is flexable. I goarge my bird at least every two week or more. This works for me.

[Irete Yekun]

Buenos Días, Disculpen y.......para lo que NO.......... manejamos el Idioma Ingles sera muy dificil que traduzcan este documento, Gracias, Saludos

[luis jose recalde mello]

¿ese articulo no esta en "la leyenda del aguila de harris"? yo lo lei y si no es ese articulo, por lo menos habla largo y tendido sobre el control de peso en 22 horas, aplivado a los harris, y no lo puedo comparar con este porque no tengo ni idea de ingles , ojala alguien la traduzca, aunque mas no sea en partes

[JOSE LUIS ROMERO]

Compañeros cetreros todos:
Carlos:
Gracias por el ofrecimiento y como dice es cuestión de ponernos en contacto de manera mas formal, en cuanto a las liberación del cola roja, le comento, es recomendable trabajarla un rato y sobre todo ubicar varias zonas para el efecto, referente al macho de cola roja seria un gran adelanto y tener listos ya a la futura pareja de reproductores.
tenemos que vernos para poder platicar con todos los que conformamos el grupo y de esta manera consolidar de manera total la segunda parte del proyecto de rehabilitación que es el de la reproducción, tenemos dos lineas de trabajo una con cernícalo americano y la segunda con con los harris, con su propuesta, los cola roja se cubren las tres lineas.
jose luis romero
Mexico d, f tel: 54212999
correo electrónico: romerohalcon@yahoo.com.mx

[JOSE LUIS ROMERO]

Compañero virdz:
le agradezco sinceramente este detalle y en lo que le pueda ayudar cuente con migo.
jose luis.